BACKGROUND:
Since Battle for Azeroth, Marksmanship’s entire AoE capabilities have revolved around activating one passive effect – Trick Shots. For those who are unaware, Trick Shots reads like this: “When Multi-Shot hits 3 or more targets, your next Aimed Shot or Rapid Fire will ricochet and hit up to 5 additional targets for 75% of normal damage.” Your aoe rotation is essentially to make sure you have this buff active before casting every big damage ability (Aimed Shot/Rapid Fire). This works great when 3+ targets are present to hit with Multi-Shot, but what happens when there are only 2 targets? The answer is very little. Marksmanship is the only spec in the game that gains almost ZERO value from adding an additional target.
THE NUMBERS:
We can see this in action when we examine logs from Nerub-ar Palace. On Sikran, a pure single target fight, marksmanship is the highest performing spec over the past 2 weeks. On heroic, they do a maximum of 2,003,991 DPS, with the median at 1,196,502, and the upper quartile at 1,547,514. If we compare this to Silken Court, a fight that has two targets for the majority of the time (with occasional adds spawning), Marksmanship falls into the bottom third. They deal a maximum of 2,012,923 DPS, with the median at 1,190,107, and the upper quartile at 1,568,019. The median DPS actually GOES DOWN with an extra target to hit. This is likely due to more movement and mechanics to deal with compared to Sikran, but let’s take a look at the max DPS of some other specs and see how they compare:
Destruction: Sikran – 1.66M; Silken Court – 2.21M
Arms: Sikran – 1.74M; Silken Court – 2.22M
Windwalker: Sikran – 1.64M; Silken Court – 2.02M
Fire: Sikran – 1.57M; Silken Court – 2.07M
Enhancement: Sikran – 1.80M; Silken Court – 2.25M
Even specs that traditionally aren’t known for their strength on two targets are gaining massive damage boosts (25-30%) when you add a second target, but Marksmanship’s damage is almost THE EXACT SAME.
THE PHILOSOPHY:
Every other spec has ways to smoothly increase their damage as target counts increase, with many specs getting a bonus on two targets that naturally fits into their aoe package. For example, Splitting Ice for Frost Mages causes their two most powerful single target abilities to naturally cleave to a second target for 90% of their damage. This bonus is naturally overshadowed by their dedicated aoe tools (Frozen Orb/Comet Storm/Blizzard package) as target counts increase. At certain target counts, they may want to sacrifice some single target damage to take the Coldest Snap talent, which allows them to cast more Frozen Orbs and Comet Storms over the course of an encounter or dungeon. However, even if they don’t pick this setup, they still do decent aoe with Frozen Orb and great 2-target cleave with Splitting Ice. Other similar examples include Sweeping Strikes for Arms Warrior, and Havoc/Mayhem for Destruction Warlock. In both of these cases, they have 2-target cleave abilities that only AMPLIFY their aoe potential by providing additional resources and raw damage, and don’t directly detract from their dedicated aoe abilities.
Other specs, like Fury Warrior, have no dedicated 2-target cleave abilities. Fury Warrior is incredibly similar to Marksmanship Hunter in how they perform their aoe damage. The Improved Whirlwind talent causes Whirlwind (a low damage aoe ability) to make your next 2 (4 with Meat Cleaver) single-target abilities to cleave for 55% of their damage. Sound familiar? It’s almost exactly like how Marksmanship operates in aoe, except that they’re not arbitrarily locked out of activating their entire aoe engine on fewer than 3 targets. Fury Warrior is one of the lowest performing single target specs on Sikran, yet they get enough of a boost in 2-target situations that they outperform Marksmanship on Silken Court.
BLIZZARD’S “FIX” IN 11.1:
Blizzard clearly understands that this is an issue, and so in 11.1 they’re introducing a choice node with Trick Shots called Aspect of the Hydra. This reads: “Aimed Shot, Rapid Fire, and Arcane Shot now hit a second nearby target for 40% of their damage.” This is a step in the right direction! But it still falls woefully short of the mark.
The biggest problem is that it’s a choice node with Trick Shots. This means that, to do anything productive in 2-target cleave, you have to be willing to forego almost YOUR ENTIRE ability to do aoe damage past 3 targets. This would be like if Havoc/Mayhem was a choice node with Rain of Fire, if Eternity’s Span was a choice node with Pyre, if Splitting Ice was a choice node with Frozen Orb, the list goes on. Choosing between being useless on two targets, or being mostly useless on anything over 3 and having to lock this choice in before a boss encounter or an entire m+ dungeon run simply feels bad. Is it too much to ask to be able to do ANYTHING extra against 2 targets without sacrificing our entire aoe capability?
The other main issue is that this talent provides zero rotational change or any fun factor whatsoever. You simply pick this talent, execute your pure single target rotation, and then passively do a % of that damage to a nearby target. It’s a very boring option with little room for skill expression, especially when you compare it to abilities like Havoc or Sweeping Strikes that accomplish a similar end. Even other specs like Shadow Priest and Affliction Warlock that primarily execute their single target rotation in aoe still have to manage dots on secondary targets to enable their cleave potential.
A BETTER WAY:
There’s still time for Blizzard to reimagine this talent to make it far more exciting and far less restrictive. There are a number of good examples we’ve covered from which they can draw inspiration:
1. Make it like Fury Warrior: Delete Aspect of the Hydra and allow Multi-Shot to activate Trick Shots whenever cast, regardless of targets hit.
2. Make it like Destruction Warlock: Add Chimera Shot back in as a cooldown that gives you Aspect of the Hydra for 10ish seconds.
3. Make it like Trick Shots: Add Chimera Shot back in as a separate core ability that gives you Aspect of the Hydra for the next Aimed Shot or Rapid fire.
I’m personally a fan of the third option, since this feels most true to Marksmanship’s aoe flow, while still providing some important moment to moment decision-making – “Can I hit enough targets with Multi-Shot to activate Trick Shots, or should I press Chimera Shot instead? Will the secondary targets live long enough for my next Aimed Shot to hit them, or should I just press Arcane Shot?” Supporting talents could be added to make Chimera Shot an interesting pick in single target as well (maybe, after consuming x Precise Shots your next Chimera Shot deals 300% increased damage to it’s primary target) replacing some of the more lackluster passives.
If you’ve read this far, thanks for listening! I’d love to hear any other ideas people might have!
submitted by /u/pvshabba
[link] [comments]
r/wow BACKGROUND: Since Battle for Azeroth, Marksmanship’s entire AoE capabilities have revolved around activating one passive effect – Trick Shots. For those who are unaware, Trick Shots reads like this: “When Multi-Shot hits 3 or more targets, your next Aimed Shot or Rapid Fire will ricochet and hit up to 5 additional targets for 75% of normal damage.” Your aoe rotation is essentially to make sure you have this buff active before casting every big damage ability (Aimed Shot/Rapid Fire). This works great when 3+ targets are present to hit with Multi-Shot, but what happens when there are only 2 targets? The answer is very little. Marksmanship is the only spec in the game that gains almost ZERO value from adding an additional target. THE NUMBERS: We can see this in action when we examine logs from Nerub-ar Palace. On Sikran, a pure single target fight, marksmanship is the highest performing spec over the past 2 weeks. On heroic, they do a maximum of 2,003,991 DPS, with the median at 1,196,502, and the upper quartile at 1,547,514. If we compare this to Silken Court, a fight that has two targets for the majority of the time (with occasional adds spawning), Marksmanship falls into the bottom third. They deal a maximum of 2,012,923 DPS, with the median at 1,190,107, and the upper quartile at 1,568,019. The median DPS actually GOES DOWN with an extra target to hit. This is likely due to more movement and mechanics to deal with compared to Sikran, but let’s take a look at the max DPS of some other specs and see how they compare: Destruction: Sikran – 1.66M; Silken Court – 2.21M Arms: Sikran – 1.74M; Silken Court – 2.22M Windwalker: Sikran – 1.64M; Silken Court – 2.02M Fire: Sikran – 1.57M; Silken Court – 2.07M Enhancement: Sikran – 1.80M; Silken Court – 2.25M Even specs that traditionally aren’t known for their strength on two targets are gaining massive damage boosts (25-30%) when you add a second target, but Marksmanship’s damage is almost THE EXACT SAME. THE PHILOSOPHY: Every other spec has ways to smoothly increase their damage as target counts increase, with many specs getting a bonus on two targets that naturally fits into their aoe package. For example, Splitting Ice for Frost Mages causes their two most powerful single target abilities to naturally cleave to a second target for 90% of their damage. This bonus is naturally overshadowed by their dedicated aoe tools (Frozen Orb/Comet Storm/Blizzard package) as target counts increase. At certain target counts, they may want to sacrifice some single target damage to take the Coldest Snap talent, which allows them to cast more Frozen Orbs and Comet Storms over the course of an encounter or dungeon. However, even if they don’t pick this setup, they still do decent aoe with Frozen Orb and great 2-target cleave with Splitting Ice. Other similar examples include Sweeping Strikes for Arms Warrior, and Havoc/Mayhem for Destruction Warlock. In both of these cases, they have 2-target cleave abilities that only AMPLIFY their aoe potential by providing additional resources and raw damage, and don’t directly detract from their dedicated aoe abilities. Other specs, like Fury Warrior, have no dedicated 2-target cleave abilities. Fury Warrior is incredibly similar to Marksmanship Hunter in how they perform their aoe damage. The Improved Whirlwind talent causes Whirlwind (a low damage aoe ability) to make your next 2 (4 with Meat Cleaver) single-target abilities to cleave for 55% of their damage. Sound familiar? It’s almost exactly like how Marksmanship operates in aoe, except that they’re not arbitrarily locked out of activating their entire aoe engine on fewer than 3 targets. Fury Warrior is one of the lowest performing single target specs on Sikran, yet they get enough of a boost in 2-target situations that they outperform Marksmanship on Silken Court. BLIZZARD’S “FIX” IN 11.1: Blizzard clearly understands that this is an issue, and so in 11.1 they’re introducing a choice node with Trick Shots called Aspect of the Hydra. This reads: “Aimed Shot, Rapid Fire, and Arcane Shot now hit a second nearby target for 40% of their damage.” This is a step in the right direction! But it still falls woefully short of the mark. The biggest problem is that it’s a choice node with Trick Shots. This means that, to do anything productive in 2-target cleave, you have to be willing to forego almost YOUR ENTIRE ability to do aoe damage past 3 targets. This would be like if Havoc/Mayhem was a choice node with Rain of Fire, if Eternity’s Span was a choice node with Pyre, if Splitting Ice was a choice node with Frozen Orb, the list goes on. Choosing between being useless on two targets, or being mostly useless on anything over 3 and having to lock this choice in before a boss encounter or an entire m+ dungeon run simply feels bad. Is it too much to ask to be able to do ANYTHING extra against 2 targets without sacrificing our entire aoe capability? The other main issue is that this talent provides zero rotational change or any fun factor whatsoever. You simply pick this talent, execute your pure single target rotation, and then passively do a % of that damage to a nearby target. It’s a very boring option with little room for skill expression, especially when you compare it to abilities like Havoc or Sweeping Strikes that accomplish a similar end. Even other specs like Shadow Priest and Affliction Warlock that primarily execute their single target rotation in aoe still have to manage dots on secondary targets to enable their cleave potential. A BETTER WAY: There’s still time for Blizzard to reimagine this talent to make it far more exciting and far less restrictive. There are a number of good examples we’ve covered from which they can draw inspiration: 1. Make it like Fury Warrior: Delete Aspect of the Hydra and allow Multi-Shot to activate Trick Shots whenever cast, regardless of targets hit. 2. Make it like Destruction Warlock: Add Chimera Shot back in as a cooldown that gives you Aspect of the Hydra for 10ish seconds. 3. Make it like Trick Shots: Add Chimera Shot back in as a separate core ability that gives you Aspect of the Hydra for the next Aimed Shot or Rapid fire. I’m personally a fan of the third option, since this feels most true to Marksmanship’s aoe flow, while still providing some important moment to moment decision-making – “Can I hit enough targets with Multi-Shot to activate Trick Shots, or should I press Chimera Shot instead? Will the secondary targets live long enough for my next Aimed Shot to hit them, or should I just press Arcane Shot?” Supporting talents could be added to make Chimera Shot an interesting pick in single target as well (maybe, after consuming x Precise Shots your next Chimera Shot deals 300% increased damage to it’s primary target) replacing some of the more lackluster passives. If you’ve read this far, thanks for listening! I’d love to hear any other ideas people might have! submitted by /u/pvshabba [link] [comments]
BACKGROUND:
Since Battle for Azeroth, Marksmanship’s entire AoE capabilities have revolved around activating one passive effect – Trick Shots. For those who are unaware, Trick Shots reads like this: “When Multi-Shot hits 3 or more targets, your next Aimed Shot or Rapid Fire will ricochet and hit up to 5 additional targets for 75% of normal damage.” Your aoe rotation is essentially to make sure you have this buff active before casting every big damage ability (Aimed Shot/Rapid Fire). This works great when 3+ targets are present to hit with Multi-Shot, but what happens when there are only 2 targets? The answer is very little. Marksmanship is the only spec in the game that gains almost ZERO value from adding an additional target.
THE NUMBERS:
We can see this in action when we examine logs from Nerub-ar Palace. On Sikran, a pure single target fight, marksmanship is the highest performing spec over the past 2 weeks. On heroic, they do a maximum of 2,003,991 DPS, with the median at 1,196,502, and the upper quartile at 1,547,514. If we compare this to Silken Court, a fight that has two targets for the majority of the time (with occasional adds spawning), Marksmanship falls into the bottom third. They deal a maximum of 2,012,923 DPS, with the median at 1,190,107, and the upper quartile at 1,568,019. The median DPS actually GOES DOWN with an extra target to hit. This is likely due to more movement and mechanics to deal with compared to Sikran, but let’s take a look at the max DPS of some other specs and see how they compare:
Destruction: Sikran – 1.66M; Silken Court – 2.21M
Arms: Sikran – 1.74M; Silken Court – 2.22M
Windwalker: Sikran – 1.64M; Silken Court – 2.02M
Fire: Sikran – 1.57M; Silken Court – 2.07M
Enhancement: Sikran – 1.80M; Silken Court – 2.25M
Even specs that traditionally aren’t known for their strength on two targets are gaining massive damage boosts (25-30%) when you add a second target, but Marksmanship’s damage is almost THE EXACT SAME.
THE PHILOSOPHY:
Every other spec has ways to smoothly increase their damage as target counts increase, with many specs getting a bonus on two targets that naturally fits into their aoe package. For example, Splitting Ice for Frost Mages causes their two most powerful single target abilities to naturally cleave to a second target for 90% of their damage. This bonus is naturally overshadowed by their dedicated aoe tools (Frozen Orb/Comet Storm/Blizzard package) as target counts increase. At certain target counts, they may want to sacrifice some single target damage to take the Coldest Snap talent, which allows them to cast more Frozen Orbs and Comet Storms over the course of an encounter or dungeon. However, even if they don’t pick this setup, they still do decent aoe with Frozen Orb and great 2-target cleave with Splitting Ice. Other similar examples include Sweeping Strikes for Arms Warrior, and Havoc/Mayhem for Destruction Warlock. In both of these cases, they have 2-target cleave abilities that only AMPLIFY their aoe potential by providing additional resources and raw damage, and don’t directly detract from their dedicated aoe abilities.
Other specs, like Fury Warrior, have no dedicated 2-target cleave abilities. Fury Warrior is incredibly similar to Marksmanship Hunter in how they perform their aoe damage. The Improved Whirlwind talent causes Whirlwind (a low damage aoe ability) to make your next 2 (4 with Meat Cleaver) single-target abilities to cleave for 55% of their damage. Sound familiar? It’s almost exactly like how Marksmanship operates in aoe, except that they’re not arbitrarily locked out of activating their entire aoe engine on fewer than 3 targets. Fury Warrior is one of the lowest performing single target specs on Sikran, yet they get enough of a boost in 2-target situations that they outperform Marksmanship on Silken Court.
BLIZZARD’S “FIX” IN 11.1:
Blizzard clearly understands that this is an issue, and so in 11.1 they’re introducing a choice node with Trick Shots called Aspect of the Hydra. This reads: “Aimed Shot, Rapid Fire, and Arcane Shot now hit a second nearby target for 40% of their damage.” This is a step in the right direction! But it still falls woefully short of the mark.
The biggest problem is that it’s a choice node with Trick Shots. This means that, to do anything productive in 2-target cleave, you have to be willing to forego almost YOUR ENTIRE ability to do aoe damage past 3 targets. This would be like if Havoc/Mayhem was a choice node with Rain of Fire, if Eternity’s Span was a choice node with Pyre, if Splitting Ice was a choice node with Frozen Orb, the list goes on. Choosing between being useless on two targets, or being mostly useless on anything over 3 and having to lock this choice in before a boss encounter or an entire m+ dungeon run simply feels bad. Is it too much to ask to be able to do ANYTHING extra against 2 targets without sacrificing our entire aoe capability?
The other main issue is that this talent provides zero rotational change or any fun factor whatsoever. You simply pick this talent, execute your pure single target rotation, and then passively do a % of that damage to a nearby target. It’s a very boring option with little room for skill expression, especially when you compare it to abilities like Havoc or Sweeping Strikes that accomplish a similar end. Even other specs like Shadow Priest and Affliction Warlock that primarily execute their single target rotation in aoe still have to manage dots on secondary targets to enable their cleave potential.
A BETTER WAY:
There’s still time for Blizzard to reimagine this talent to make it far more exciting and far less restrictive. There are a number of good examples we’ve covered from which they can draw inspiration:
1. Make it like Fury Warrior: Delete Aspect of the Hydra and allow Multi-Shot to activate Trick Shots whenever cast, regardless of targets hit.
2. Make it like Destruction Warlock: Add Chimera Shot back in as a cooldown that gives you Aspect of the Hydra for 10ish seconds.
3. Make it like Trick Shots: Add Chimera Shot back in as a separate core ability that gives you Aspect of the Hydra for the next Aimed Shot or Rapid fire.
I’m personally a fan of the third option, since this feels most true to Marksmanship’s aoe flow, while still providing some important moment to moment decision-making – “Can I hit enough targets with Multi-Shot to activate Trick Shots, or should I press Chimera Shot instead? Will the secondary targets live long enough for my next Aimed Shot to hit them, or should I just press Arcane Shot?” Supporting talents could be added to make Chimera Shot an interesting pick in single target as well (maybe, after consuming x Precise Shots your next Chimera Shot deals 300% increased damage to it’s primary target) replacing some of the more lackluster passives.
If you’ve read this far, thanks for listening! I’d love to hear any other ideas people might have!
submitted by /u/pvshabba
[link] [comments]